06.10 Igor Taro

Tanel Pedaru: Kokkuvõte Igor Taro loengust

Teisipäeval 6. oktoobril pidas RSRi ees loengu Igor Taro teemal "Nähtamatu sõda Kaukaasias".

• Igor Taro on pärit Võrust, õppinud ajakirjandust TÜs ja Moskvas. Töötanud Õhtulehes ja Postimehes, praegu Setomaa peatoimetaja. Kirjutab Venemaa ja teiste postsovetlike teemadel.

• Külastas 2009 kevadel Armeeniat, käinud ka Gruusias ja Aserbaidžaanis.

• Armeenia aktuaalne, kuna tulemas Armeenia-Türgi diplomaatiliste suhete sisseseadmise eeldokument. See on oluline, kuna Armeenia praegune olukord iseloomustab hästi kogu piirkonda.

• Armeenia puhul on tegu kristliku riigiga. Religiooni poolest on nad väga lähedased Gruusiaga, sisse piiratud islamistlike riikide poolt.

• Igor Taro on kirjutanud Postimehes Armeeniast EL-i idapartnerluse võtmes. Armeenia-Türgi suhted jäid sellest välja. Suurimaks tüliküsimuseks 1915-17 sündmused, mida armeenlased peavad genotsiidiks, kuid türklased eitavad seda. Alates Armeenia iseseisvumist (peale NSVL lagunemist) pole need kaks naabrit omavahel diplomaatilisi suhteid omanud. Armeenia-Türgi vahel on piir kinni alates Mägi-Karabahhi kriisist, toetamaks Aserbaidžaani, kellega Türgil on lähedased suhted. Türgi-Aserbaidžaani suhted meenutavad Eesti-Soome omi ning Türgi kohalolek seal riigis on tuntav.

• Ligikaudu aasta tagasi toimus jalgpallimatš Türgi ja Armeenia vahel, tegemist oli ajaloolise sündmusega. Selle tegi erakordseks Türgi presidendi kohalolu Jerevanis. Jerevan on püüdnud suhteid Türgiga pärast Gruusia sõda parandada meeleheitlikult. Kuna Armeenia on sõltuv Gruusia transporditeedest, siis mõjutas Augustisõda nende varustatust väga tugevalt. Armeenlased pole ilmselt soovinud Iraaniga ka liialt tihedat läbikäimist. Seega sattus Armeenia väga raskesse olukorda.

• See, et piir Armeenia-Türgi vahel kinni on, ei tähenda, et rahvas omavahel üldse ei suhtleks. Kaasaegsetel armeenlastel ei ole tänapäevast ettekujutust türklastest, nende kuvand on ajaloos kinni. See seletab ka ettevaatlikkust, mis on saatnud kahe riigi vaheliste suhete parandamist. Mõlemad riigid kannatavad suhete puudumise tõttu, aga nende riikide valitsused ei saa tulla välja mingite eriti äkiliste avaldustega, kuna kodune selgitustöö on olnud puudulik. Mõlema riigi ühiskond on läbi imbunud vihast teise riigi vastu.

• Armeenia jaoks on rahvusliku kokkukuuluvuse tunnuseks genotsiidi aastapäeva tähistamine, mil sajand tuhanded kogunevad, et lilli viia monumendi juurde. Mõtlemine on väga ajaloos kinni ja peaks olema suunatud pigem tulevikku.

• Armeenia diasporaa ja kohalike armeenlaste suhtumine Türgisse on erinev. Enamik armeenlasi elab Armeenias väljaspool. 3 miljonit neist elab kohapeal ja 10 miljonit väljaspool. Diasporaa poolt saadetav rahahulk ületab riigi ekspordimahtu. 30. detsembril saadetakse üle kogu maailma armeenlaste poolt kodustele raha. Seetõttu ei saa Armeenia valitsus ignoreerida nende seisukohti.

• Välispoliitiliselt on Armeenia võtnud kindla suuna Läände. Selle põhjuseks on ka neile endale meelehärmi tegev tugev sõltuvus Venemaast. Kogu Armeenia kütus ja gaas tuleb sealt. Armeenias asub ka Vene sõjaväebaas. Suhtumine nende kohalolekusse on teistsugune kui eestlaste puhul. Armeenlased käsitlevad venelaste baasi nende iseseisvuse garantiina. Ilma Venemaa toetuseta oleks sõda Aserbaidžaaniga veninud pikemaks ja saavutanud teistsuguse lahenduse. Armeeniale aga ei meeldi, et neid survestatakse Abhaasia ja Lõuna-Osseetia tunnustamisel. Armeenlased ise soovivad end näidata Läände suunatud ühiskonnana. Vene kohalolu Armeenias on vägagi tuntav.

• Armeeniale pole üldjuhul Abhaasia ja Lõuna-Osseetia tunnustamine probleem, kuna nad toetavad Aserbaidžaanist eralduda soovivat territooriumi (Mägi-Karabahhia). Samuti okupeerib Armeenia ka praegu suurt osa Aserbaidžaani territooriumist. Nad põhjendavad seda „puhvertsoonide“ loomisega ümber Mägi-Karabahhia, et seda kaitsta. Puhtsõjaliselt peaks Aserbaidžaan olema Armeeniast tugevam olema, aga Vene sõjaväebaasi kohalolu on neid pidurdanud. Gruusia augustisõda on aseritele teinud selgeks, et pole mõtet midagi avantüristlikku üritada.

• Armeenia-Aserbaidžaani tüli sai alguse 90ndate alguse referendumist, kus 99% Mägi-Karabahhia elanikkonnast otsustas, et nad ei taha aseritega ühes riigis elada. Olukord sarnaneb väga Transnistria probleemiga. Aserbaidžaan läks põhiseaduslikku korda taastama, algul oli tegemist pigem politseioperatsiooniga. Initsiatiiv aga kaotati ja vastupanu osutus tugevamaks, kui osati arvata. Venemaa toetus otsustas küsimuse. Venemaa huvi on säilitada oma mõjuvõimu Kaukaasia piirkonnas. Samuti pole venelased huvitatud edukate gaasi-naftajuhtmete rajamisest Venemaast mööda.

• Armeenia-Gruusia suhted. Huvitav olukord, kuidas reageerida, kui Armeenia tähtsaim partner satub sõjategevusesse. Armeenia lasi igasugustel humanitaarmissioonidel läbi enda territooriumi minna.

• Armeenia-Venemaa suhteid iseloomustab 200 aastat tihedat läbikäimist. Armeenia on maailma vanim kristlik riik, aastast 40 pKr. See paigutab ta Lääne kristlike tsivilisatsioonidega ühte patta. Seda on eurooplastel vahel raske mõista. Euroopa Liit panustab Armeeniasse Idapartnerluse raames hetkel 25 mln euroga aastas, 2010. aastal pidi see summa arvatavalt kahekordistuma – see näitab mingil määral EL-i optimismi. Kui Gruusiat ja Armeeniat võrrelda, siis Armeenias on asjad palju rohkem asju halvasti läinud. Gruusia on teinud tublisid edusamme, Armeenias on aga pilt küllaltki masendav. Turisti silma hellitav eksootika upub seal nõukogudejärgsetesse rusudesse.

• Selle pärast ongi tegemist nähtamatu sõjaga, kuna ei kasutata aktiivselt relvi, tanke, aga toimub pidev jõukatsumine.

• Eesti üritab Armeenia ja Aserbaidžaani vahel hoida neutraalset joont – kummaski riigis pole meil saatkonda. Eesti on selgelt panustanud Gruusiasse.

• Armeenias on vihjeid varimajanduse suurele osatähtsusele (rahapesu väikestes pankades). Ministrite ametlik palk on 500 dollarit kuus, kuid pealinn on täis kalleid ja uhkeid autosid. Korruptsiooniindeks oli Armeenia puhul 115. maailmas (Transparency International). Ka tänavapilt toetab seda.

Konspekteeris Tanel Pedaru

On 28th November, the guest lecturer in RSR was Marina Kaljurand who gave lecture on “Cyber Security – challenges and potential responses”. She has served as the Ambassador of Estonia to USA, Mexico, Russia, Kazahstan and Israel. She has also been the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Estonia. Currently, she is a Chair of the Global Commission on the Stability of Cyberspace.

First time when Marina Kaljurand learned about cyber security was in 2007 when Estonia was under politically motivated cyberattacks. Back then she was an Estonian ambassador to Russia and she had to explain what is happening in Estonia – DDoS-attacks. It was important to talk about this because cyber does not have borders and in this field, cooperation is necessary. She said that states are not allowed to take any illegal actions and according to international law they must stop every illegal action that is transiting their country. It was known back then that cyberattacks came from Russian territory – Estonia had all the legal instruments in place, but the will was missing (there was a cooperation between allies but not with Russia).

In year of Snowden’s disclosure, Kaljurand was posted to the US. She said that the US changed a lot during these times and question of trust was the most important. Estonia was the first country to have a bilateral agreement in cyber security with the US and it was used as a hook to bring Obama to Tallinn (he came later, though). For Estonian diplomats, it is very important to represent our country because usually nobody cares about us and many even do not know (still think that we are part of the USSR). That was the reason we had to find our niche – which is cyber (e-lifestyle, cyber security) – and now it opens the doors and starts the conversations.

Currently there are 84 global bodies dealing with cyber security. Marina Kaljurand is the Chair of the Global Commission on the Stability of Cyberspace. At first, they were hesitating to include Russian and Chinese experts but as it is a global commission, they need people from different countries. They also have Jeff Moss and Joseph Nye, also human rights activists, and civil society experts. Commission is a multistakeholder. Governments need to cooperate in order to be successful because there are a lot of actors in cyber area. There is an ideological division in between of how the ICT is seen – one side (especially the West) sees it beneficial (lets do it!) and another (i.e. Russia and China) side sees the use of the ICT as interfering (colour revolutions, influencing internal politics). It is difficult to cooperate between two divisions.

Cyber is not only for IT geeks, there are so many fields – diplomacy, international affairs, law, etc. For Kaljurand, cyber security is about stability, it is an open, secure, stable, and accessible Internet. 65% of people are not online yet, they are to join us and we need to have stable and secure Internet. She said that we have to raise the awareness to countries who have no idea what is happening in cyber field. Thus, although she had no idea what all the 84 bodies are doing, she was happy that there are so many of them who are raising the awareness.

In 2013, it was decided by the UN GGE that international law applies to cyber space. The question is about how (jurisdiction and sovereignty). When is the sovereignty of a state violated (for example, in case of malware or when somebody really dies because of a cyber-attack?) UN is the only global organization, but it is from the 1940s. UN will never agree on everything, thus we need a division of like-minded states who have the same understanding and norms on how to behave in cyber space. For example, norm is that it is not okay to attack financial institutions during the peace time. Every country should be interested in having common norms, but it is not possible to agree because of the ideological divisions. If UN cannot work on that, then a group of likeminded countries can. Other bodies are the EU and NATO and both have its roles, for example, cyber is the 5th domain of operations (in addition to air, space, land, maritime). There is a NATO Centre of Excellence in Tallinn. The aim of cyber stability is to avoid misunderstandings (confidence building is getting people together, OECD is doing an excellent work there).

Kaljurand also spoke about Estonia’s e-voting. She used Hack the Pentagon – hackers were asked to hack a system to find vulnerabilities – example and she wants to do the same in Estonia with e-voting. She believes that we have a good system but there is so much criticism from abroad and we need a PR-event - Hack Estonian e-voting. We need international hackers for that. Government is not ready yet but she is still convincing it. We need to face challenges but not to step back. It may happen that people perceive it as negative PR (hackers are hacking Estonia) but we need to explain a lot what are we doing and why. We were lucky to have an ID-crisis in 2017 because we started to feel ourselves too comfortable.

What is the future of UN GGE? Has it failed because in the last meeting the participating countries did not reach a consensus?

Internet of Things, terrorism, international law, norms, confidence building measures, capacity building – GGE is looking these five fields. GGE was supposed to write a report (goal was not to go back from what was agreed two years earlier). Kaljurand does not think that coming years show a will of agreeing on something, she said that coming years will be for educating.

She also said that we need to start asking something for return. For example, if some country wants assistance in e-taxation, then it must make a political statement (international law applies to cyber space or a statement about human rights). If a country is not willing to make a statement, then it should ask for an assistance from some other country.

How to deal with Russia and China?

She has no answer to that. Balkanization of Internet (different countries have different Internets). She does not see that we could find common ground with China or Russia because of the big ideological differences. It may happen that states reach the point where they agree that cyberattacks are not okay. 2007 nobody died, it was just humiliating. All the cyberattacks have been kind of mild but if cyber 9/11 happens then the world would come together, and states would have more will and intentions to agree on some rules. It is a grey zone if you do not have rules. People get to together usually when something bad happens, it has not happened with cyber yet.

Tech-people can do attribution, but it has a political dimension as well, as it depends on the politicians (do they have the courage to say it out or not). She referred to former Minister of Defence Jaak Aaviksoo who said that we did reasonable attribution and our conclusion is that when somebody does everything like a dog then most probably it is a dog. Attribution is a political question and increasingly states should say that they were attacked by this or that country.

You can buy cyber weapons from the black market but it’s too primitive. It will change with Artificial Intelligence (AI) and internet of things, it will be cheaper for terrorists. So far it has not been used. KRATT – Estonian law on AI (obligations, responsibilities). Finland, company who has AI in its board, EE-FIN are competing on who will have the law first.

Why are there so many diplomatic efforts (84)?

She does not know what all of them are doing. On the one side, it is good that so many institutions are discussing cyber security. 2004 or 2007 nobody was discussing cyber but today everybody is discussing it. Her commission tries to look at what others are doing. It is good to have so many even if they duplicate. It is important to discuss and educate people.

Cyber security is connected to open internet. Are the EU and US values the same if something goes south?

US is very vocal about open internet, freedom of the Internet. They are strong supporters of human rights online and open internet. There are differences how countries see intelligence etc but basically, we are on the same side. We may disagree on small things, but we share the same principles and understanding.

Could you elaborate more on EU’s role (EU diplomacy toolbox) concerning cyber security?

Cyber diplomacy toolbox – if something happens how do we react. International law allows retaliation. We have regulations. What are the measures in case of cyberattack against a member state? All the rules apply to cyber security (political statements, sanctions etc). The same as the EU has done in the case of Crimea. In the EU it is easier than in NATO. In NATO, there is no mechanism of what to do in case of an attack.

However, there is a problem with the EU and overregulation - EU is very happy when it can regulate something. EU is not a single market, with cyber it is more complicated, there are more regulations. Some regulations are needed because you need to have some frames. You have to know what is allowed and what is not. It is difficult to find a balance.

How Is the cooperation with industries?

Estonia is cooperating pretty well with the industries. All industries (Microsoft, Facebook) complained that governments were not cooperating enough. Industries have ideas. States will not give away authority on retaliation, attribution etc. It is about attitudes (I know how to do my job!). Governments are starting to understand that they can’t do anything without industries. In the end, they have IT-nerds, governments cannot afford them. Hackers are going to school and teach cyber hygiene to students. Teachers were negative until they started to cooperate with the policemen. She said that hackers despite their image are not bad guys.

How much is Estonia an ideal case? How to implement it to other countries?

Estonia is doing well. Other countries need to find what is suitable to them. They don’t need to copy; every country (state) can find something what is interesting to them. Estonia needs to introduce what we are doing and urge others to find what is interesting to them. You can always do the same thing but with going around the corner.

Konspekteeris Kert Ajamaa