03.03 Ants Liimets

Anton Neidre: Kokkuvõte Ants Liimetsa loengust

Teema "Kohalik "välispoliitika"".

3. märtsil 2009 oli RSR-i ees Narva linnasekretär Ants Liimets. Liimets on Narva linnavalitsuses töötanud alates esimesest septembrist 1993 ning on volikogus üks vähestest eestlastest. Kõneleja sõnul on Narva linnal läinud alates Eesti taasiseseisvumisest majanduslikult pigem hästi kui halvasti ning eelarve on olnud raskustes vaid ühel perioodil, Soome lama ajal. Hea on ka rahvuste omavaheline läbisaamine. Enamus kohalikust suhtlusest toimub mõistagi vene keeles. Noorem põlvkond valdab hästi ka näiteks saksa, inglise ja soome keelt.

Narva nimelisi linnu on maailmas ainult kaks (teine asub Saksamaal) ning oma unikaalse asukoha tõttu Eesti ja Euroopa Liidu idapiiril ei vaja linn reklaami. Liimetsa sõnul on rahvusvahelise edu saavutamiseks olemas lihtne valem, mis koosneb heast võõrkeele oskusest ja soovist suhelda. Narval on mitmeid sõpruslinnu erinevates Euroopa riikides ning välismaal tuntakse linna vastu suurt huvi. Juhtkond osaleb regulaarselt välisriikides toimuvatel seminaridel, nt Prantsusmaal ja Venemaal. Mõne linnaga on sõlmitud ka koostööleping, kinnitamaks pikaajalist sõprussidet ning hõlbustamaks suhtlust. Järgnevalt lühike kokkuvõte loengus nimetatud linnadest.

1. Lahti, Soomes. Lahti on üks linnadest, millega Narva omab sõpruslepingut. Viimane ei pane kummalegi osapoolele märkimisväärseid kohustusi, ent annab õiguse vastastikku viisavabalt külastada. Punkt viisavabaduse kohta omas tähtsust Nõukogude Liidu lagunemise eel, kuivõrd lihtsustas oluliselt reisimist kahe linna vahel, nüüd on lepingul pigem sümboolne mõju. Soomlastelt on narvalased võtnud õppust peamiselt planeerimise valdkonnas. Kui vanasti käis reiside kavandamine päev ette, siis nüüd kirjutatakse külaskäigud pikemaajalisse, nt aastasesse plaani. Regulaarselt käiakse üksteisel külas, vahetatakse infot ning konsulteeritakse arenguküsimuste osas, Lahtis on käinud esinemas ka Narva sümfonistid.

2. Ivangorod, Venemaal. Jaanilinnaga käib suhtlus peamiselt läbi abilinnapea, kuna linnapea on väga harva kohal. Liimetsa sõnul on kahe linna vahelised suhted küllaltki vastuolulised. Liimets tõi näitena teravate suhete kohta välja aastatetaguse veetüli. (Jaanilinn lasknud puhastamata reoveed otse Narva jõkke, valmistades sellega narvalastele meelehärmi. Soomlased olid aga Eesti poole esindajaid rahustanud, et Läänemere ääres on kümneid linnu, mis oma reoveed otse merre lasevad ning ärritumiseks pole mingit põhjust.) Positiivsest küljest on aga Jaanilinnaga elav kaubandus ning Narva elanikud käivad tihti teisel pool piiri poodlemas, kusjuures peamisteks artikliteks on kütus, erinevad meelemürgid ning sigaretid.

3. Kingissepa, Venemaal. Kingissepaga on Narval kultuurivahetusprogramm. Kingissepa kohta meenutas Liimets mõne aasta tagust naljakat juhtumit. National Geographicu kaardi koostajad nimelt teadsid, et (Saaremaa keskuse) Kingissepa nimi muudeti ära Kuressaareks, ning viisid siis oma kaartidesse vastavad parandused. Et aga Venemaal on olemas samanimeline linn, muudeti ka selle nimi ära. Venelased olid viga nähes väga üllatunud.

4. Kirovi rajoon Peterburis, Venemaal. Kirovi rajooni ehitati Peeter Esimese eduka sõjakäigu auks Narva väravad. Kirovi rajooni külastuse ajal räägiti peamiselt sotsiaalmaja puudutavatel teemadel, kuid mitte Narva delegatsiooni huvitanud KOV (KOV - kohalikud omavalitsused) seadusest. Kohalike sõnul olevat rajoonis kõik parimas korras ning puudustest oldi tõrksad rääkima - „Potjomkini küla“ ja „pakazuha“, meenutas Liimets nõukogude aja märksõnu. Venemaa linnadest hoitakse suhteid ka Moskva loodeosaga.

5. Donetsk, Ukrainas. Donetskis on ülekaalus venekeelne elanikkond, nagu Narva puhul, mistõttu kahel linnal on teatud ühisjooni ning ka suhtlemine on vene keele valdamise tõttu lihtsam. Antud linnal kõneleja pikalt ei peatunud, mainides vaid, et tegu on rikka kaevanduslinnaga.

6. Barysaw, Valgevenes. Selle linna puhul mainis Liimets vaid seda, et valgevenelased on Eesti linnade hulgast huvitatud just Narvast, kuna kohalikuks suhtluskeeleks on vene keel. Ühtlasi mainiti, et Valgevenes on kaubad väga odavad (mitte võtta autoripoolse reklaamina).

7. Kristiansand, Norra. Norralt on narvalased saanud suurel hulgal kogemusi sotsiaalabi osas. Näiteks on Norras riigipoolse abi saamise üheks eelduseks välispartnerite olemasolu. Samas tõi Liimets välja asjaolu, et ehkki norralastel on meile palju õpetada toetusraha jaotamise ning kasutamise kohta, on Eesti kontekst finantsvahendite poolest märksa tagasihoidlikum. Norras on Narval ka teisi sõpruslinnu.

8. Saksa-Taani piirilinnad. Narva delegatsioonid on käinud külas mitmetel Saksamaa ja Taani piirialadel asuvates linnades ning saanud mitmeid nõuandeid demokraatia teostamise kohta Eesti-Vene piirilinnade probleemi lahendamisel. Nimelt toodi ühe võimalusena välja rahvaküsitluse teel enesemääramise võimaldamist, kumma riigi alla linn soovib kuuluda. Liimetsa sõnul ei oleks aga sellisel küsitlusel Narvas suurt usutavust ega ka mõtet. Nimelt on rahvaküsitluste tulemused tihti küsitavad ning pealegi on kõik Venemaale elama asuda soovijad 90-te aastate alguses juba ära kolinud.

Loengu lõpus räägiti Narva linnast veidi üldisemalt. Ettevõtlus on Narvas peale taasiseseisvumist saanud hoo sisse ning kui vanasti oli iga neljas narvalane seotud Kreenholmi vabrikuga, siis nüüd on linnas üle 2000 ettevõtte ning töökohti on varasemast märksa enam. Tänavad olevad Narvas puhtad ning üldine meeleolu rahulik. Naljatledes mainiti ka, et meeste ja naiste osakaal on Narvas tugevalt naiste kasuks, mistõttu „oma (meelemürke tarbinud) meest tänavale ei jäeta“.

Konspekteeris Anton Neidre

On 28th November, the guest lecturer in RSR was Marina Kaljurand who gave lecture on “Cyber Security – challenges and potential responses”. She has served as the Ambassador of Estonia to USA, Mexico, Russia, Kazahstan and Israel. She has also been the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Estonia. Currently, she is a Chair of the Global Commission on the Stability of Cyberspace.

First time when Marina Kaljurand learned about cyber security was in 2007 when Estonia was under politically motivated cyberattacks. Back then she was an Estonian ambassador to Russia and she had to explain what is happening in Estonia – DDoS-attacks. It was important to talk about this because cyber does not have borders and in this field, cooperation is necessary. She said that states are not allowed to take any illegal actions and according to international law they must stop every illegal action that is transiting their country. It was known back then that cyberattacks came from Russian territory – Estonia had all the legal instruments in place, but the will was missing (there was a cooperation between allies but not with Russia).

In year of Snowden’s disclosure, Kaljurand was posted to the US. She said that the US changed a lot during these times and question of trust was the most important. Estonia was the first country to have a bilateral agreement in cyber security with the US and it was used as a hook to bring Obama to Tallinn (he came later, though). For Estonian diplomats, it is very important to represent our country because usually nobody cares about us and many even do not know (still think that we are part of the USSR). That was the reason we had to find our niche – which is cyber (e-lifestyle, cyber security) – and now it opens the doors and starts the conversations.

Currently there are 84 global bodies dealing with cyber security. Marina Kaljurand is the Chair of the Global Commission on the Stability of Cyberspace. At first, they were hesitating to include Russian and Chinese experts but as it is a global commission, they need people from different countries. They also have Jeff Moss and Joseph Nye, also human rights activists, and civil society experts. Commission is a multistakeholder. Governments need to cooperate in order to be successful because there are a lot of actors in cyber area. There is an ideological division in between of how the ICT is seen – one side (especially the West) sees it beneficial (lets do it!) and another (i.e. Russia and China) side sees the use of the ICT as interfering (colour revolutions, influencing internal politics). It is difficult to cooperate between two divisions.

Cyber is not only for IT geeks, there are so many fields – diplomacy, international affairs, law, etc. For Kaljurand, cyber security is about stability, it is an open, secure, stable, and accessible Internet. 65% of people are not online yet, they are to join us and we need to have stable and secure Internet. She said that we have to raise the awareness to countries who have no idea what is happening in cyber field. Thus, although she had no idea what all the 84 bodies are doing, she was happy that there are so many of them who are raising the awareness.

In 2013, it was decided by the UN GGE that international law applies to cyber space. The question is about how (jurisdiction and sovereignty). When is the sovereignty of a state violated (for example, in case of malware or when somebody really dies because of a cyber-attack?) UN is the only global organization, but it is from the 1940s. UN will never agree on everything, thus we need a division of like-minded states who have the same understanding and norms on how to behave in cyber space. For example, norm is that it is not okay to attack financial institutions during the peace time. Every country should be interested in having common norms, but it is not possible to agree because of the ideological divisions. If UN cannot work on that, then a group of likeminded countries can. Other bodies are the EU and NATO and both have its roles, for example, cyber is the 5th domain of operations (in addition to air, space, land, maritime). There is a NATO Centre of Excellence in Tallinn. The aim of cyber stability is to avoid misunderstandings (confidence building is getting people together, OECD is doing an excellent work there).

Kaljurand also spoke about Estonia’s e-voting. She used Hack the Pentagon – hackers were asked to hack a system to find vulnerabilities – example and she wants to do the same in Estonia with e-voting. She believes that we have a good system but there is so much criticism from abroad and we need a PR-event - Hack Estonian e-voting. We need international hackers for that. Government is not ready yet but she is still convincing it. We need to face challenges but not to step back. It may happen that people perceive it as negative PR (hackers are hacking Estonia) but we need to explain a lot what are we doing and why. We were lucky to have an ID-crisis in 2017 because we started to feel ourselves too comfortable.

What is the future of UN GGE? Has it failed because in the last meeting the participating countries did not reach a consensus?

Internet of Things, terrorism, international law, norms, confidence building measures, capacity building – GGE is looking these five fields. GGE was supposed to write a report (goal was not to go back from what was agreed two years earlier). Kaljurand does not think that coming years show a will of agreeing on something, she said that coming years will be for educating.

She also said that we need to start asking something for return. For example, if some country wants assistance in e-taxation, then it must make a political statement (international law applies to cyber space or a statement about human rights). If a country is not willing to make a statement, then it should ask for an assistance from some other country.

How to deal with Russia and China?

She has no answer to that. Balkanization of Internet (different countries have different Internets). She does not see that we could find common ground with China or Russia because of the big ideological differences. It may happen that states reach the point where they agree that cyberattacks are not okay. 2007 nobody died, it was just humiliating. All the cyberattacks have been kind of mild but if cyber 9/11 happens then the world would come together, and states would have more will and intentions to agree on some rules. It is a grey zone if you do not have rules. People get to together usually when something bad happens, it has not happened with cyber yet.

Tech-people can do attribution, but it has a political dimension as well, as it depends on the politicians (do they have the courage to say it out or not). She referred to former Minister of Defence Jaak Aaviksoo who said that we did reasonable attribution and our conclusion is that when somebody does everything like a dog then most probably it is a dog. Attribution is a political question and increasingly states should say that they were attacked by this or that country.

You can buy cyber weapons from the black market but it’s too primitive. It will change with Artificial Intelligence (AI) and internet of things, it will be cheaper for terrorists. So far it has not been used. KRATT – Estonian law on AI (obligations, responsibilities). Finland, company who has AI in its board, EE-FIN are competing on who will have the law first.

Why are there so many diplomatic efforts (84)?

She does not know what all of them are doing. On the one side, it is good that so many institutions are discussing cyber security. 2004 or 2007 nobody was discussing cyber but today everybody is discussing it. Her commission tries to look at what others are doing. It is good to have so many even if they duplicate. It is important to discuss and educate people.

Cyber security is connected to open internet. Are the EU and US values the same if something goes south?

US is very vocal about open internet, freedom of the Internet. They are strong supporters of human rights online and open internet. There are differences how countries see intelligence etc but basically, we are on the same side. We may disagree on small things, but we share the same principles and understanding.

Could you elaborate more on EU’s role (EU diplomacy toolbox) concerning cyber security?

Cyber diplomacy toolbox – if something happens how do we react. International law allows retaliation. We have regulations. What are the measures in case of cyberattack against a member state? All the rules apply to cyber security (political statements, sanctions etc). The same as the EU has done in the case of Crimea. In the EU it is easier than in NATO. In NATO, there is no mechanism of what to do in case of an attack.

However, there is a problem with the EU and overregulation - EU is very happy when it can regulate something. EU is not a single market, with cyber it is more complicated, there are more regulations. Some regulations are needed because you need to have some frames. You have to know what is allowed and what is not. It is difficult to find a balance.

How Is the cooperation with industries?

Estonia is cooperating pretty well with the industries. All industries (Microsoft, Facebook) complained that governments were not cooperating enough. Industries have ideas. States will not give away authority on retaliation, attribution etc. It is about attitudes (I know how to do my job!). Governments are starting to understand that they can’t do anything without industries. In the end, they have IT-nerds, governments cannot afford them. Hackers are going to school and teach cyber hygiene to students. Teachers were negative until they started to cooperate with the policemen. She said that hackers despite their image are not bad guys.

How much is Estonia an ideal case? How to implement it to other countries?

Estonia is doing well. Other countries need to find what is suitable to them. They don’t need to copy; every country (state) can find something what is interesting to them. Estonia needs to introduce what we are doing and urge others to find what is interesting to them. You can always do the same thing but with going around the corner.

Konspekteeris Kert Ajamaa